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沃尔夫冈·顾彬(Wolfgang Kubin):汉学家、翻译家、作家、德国翻译家协会及德国作家协会成员。1945年12月17日出生于德国下萨克森州策勒市，1985年起任教于波恩大学东方语言学院中文系，1995年任波恩大学汉学系主任教授。以德文、英文、中文出版专著、译著和编著达50多部，如《中国文学中自然观的演变》、《中国古典诗歌史》等。合编、主编或翻译的作品有《子夜》、《莎菲女士的日记》、《家》及《现代中国小说(1949－1979)》等。 近来，顾彬已经成为在中国最具知名度的汉学家之一。他上一次引发热议是因为“德国之声”的一篇专访，国内媒体在转述的时候说，这位德国波恩大学汉学系主任以“中国当代文学是垃圾”等惊人之语，炮轰中国文学。顾彬后来澄清，媒体歪曲了他的原话，他只说过棉棉、卫慧这样的“美女作家”的作品，不是文学是垃圾。但细看顾彬接受德国之声采访的原文，可以肯定的是他对中国当代文学的评价很低。 在2007年3月底举办的“世界汉学大会”上，一场名为“汉学视野下的20世纪中国文学”的研讨会演变成“顾彬讨论会”。“我希望我是错的！”顾彬说，20世纪文学分1949年以前和以后，1949年以前的文学基本上属于世界文学，1949年以后的文学除了中国史以外基本上都不属于世界文学，前者是几百元一瓶的五粮液，后者是几块钱的二锅头。他还特别强调，中国当代作家不会外语，看不懂外文原著，“如果一个作家不掌握语言的话，他根本不是一个作家，所以基本上中国作家是业余的，而不是专家。” 首先向顾彬挑战的是北京大学中文系教授陈平原。他表示自己对中外对话过程中形成的“外来和尚会念经”的现象很不满。“我觉得有必要做一个调整。以前我们会非常客气，外国学者说的良药苦口我们都接受下来了，我们今天不要这样。有问题摆到桌子上一起讨论，即使互相之间会有一点冲撞，也没关系！” 他接下来指责顾彬“越界了”。在他看来，将中国当代作家的问题根源归结到外语不好上，绝对是错误的；而将1949年前后的作品笼统作好坏的评价，是哗众取宠。他还希望顾彬能够替中国作家设身处地地想一想，“‘外来的和尚会念经’，再加上我们全国这么多的传媒在炒作，给当代作家带来多大的压力？”他还打了个比方：假如一个做德国文学研究的中国学者，到处说德国文学不行，德国人会有什么感觉？陈平原认为，顾彬如此过分的批评，可能是因为中国人过于谦和了。 整个研讨会都在评价顾彬，这是一个奇异的现象。3月26日晚，在这次研讨会结束之后，《南风窗》记者专访了顾彬。 中国作家大多是骗子或其他什么 《南风窗》（以下简称《南》）：你怎么从学习神学转变到研究汉学的？ 顾彬（以下简称顾）：我自己觉得生活的意义是了解人是什么，所以我想通过神学了解人是什么，但在1960年代德国大学中了解到的神学，不一定会回答我的问题，所以我去找，先到哲学再到文学。可以说，我看了欧洲所有哲学和文学的经典，因为很多作品是外文写的，所以我学了很多在学校没学过的外语。 我偶然碰到一个美国诗人的翻译，他翻译了不少唐朝的诗歌，我很喜欢他的翻译。所以我觉得，为什么不学一些古代汉语呢？然后我开始学日语，我想了解中国文学能不能帮我找到“人”。因为不能够来中国，所以我1969年去日本找中国，找到唐朝的中国，日本保留很多唐朝的中国。从日本回来后，我觉得应该多学汉学，不光是唐朝的诗歌，还有孟子和孔子。这给我一个感觉，中国文化、哲学、文学的中心就是“人”，所以我从神学转到了汉学。 《南》：你更喜欢中国的古典文学。 顾：我最喜欢的是唐朝的诗歌，宋朝的散文。我不喜欢宋词，但是我喜欢宋朝的散文，太好了，美得不得了。我现在写《中国戏剧史》，元曲不能够说很喜欢，但非常有意思。明清的小说也不错。 《南》：你对中国当代文学的评价和古典文学正好相反，在接受媒体采访时，你的批评非常尖锐。你在《20世纪中国文学史》中对中国当代文学的批评，和在大众媒体面前的批评是一样的么？ 顾：我的书写得非常客观，我也介绍了一些非常“可怕”的作家和作品。我知道不少德国人，不一定是德国汉学家和作家，他们对中国文学充满了偏见。我不会责怪他们，有时候是我们工作得不够。比方说，我写中国古典诗歌史，我希望德国人看了中国古典诗歌之后，觉得中国文学真的太好了。但是我受到了批判，因为我给明清的篇幅比较少，我觉得那个时候没有什么真正好的诗。 我写《20世纪中国文学史》的时候，我的朋友说你是历史学家，虽然你不喜欢某个人、某个作者，你也知道介绍他们会引起读者的反感，但你还是介绍他们的作品。我在里面介绍了一些完全过时的作品和作家，他们在20世纪五六十年代起到作用，但是一般的德国读者看到这个会说，这就是中国文学，我不感兴趣，算了吧。 现在德国有一些教授的职位，是为了专门介绍中国文学而设置的，但这些人根本不搞翻译工作，也不接受中国作家，不和他们见面。我举个例子，很多中国作家会来波恩和我开朗诵会，我问我的同事，要不要和中国作家接触，他们都拒绝，说不要，没什么意思，无聊。他们不翻译，不介绍，不接触，不写，他们用我的资料来上课。 《南》：他们是仅仅凭借印象得出中国文学没意思的结论？ 顾：不能说他们不了解。中国当代文学是很有问题的，首先应该承认，然后我们可以再客观地谈中国还有不少好的作家。大部分人不是作家，是骗子或者其他什么。他们觉得文学可以玩，玩够了不成功的话，可以下海赚钱去。1980年代一批很重要的作家，现在什么都不写。 《南》：你觉得原因在哪里呢？ 顾：因为他们不认真。我说过文学不是业余的，文学是工作，应该有责任感。 《南》：中国作家不认真和作协体制有关系吗？ 顾：德国也有作协，我也是作协分会的会长，问题不在这里，问题在作家本身。作家应该觉得文学就是他的生活。 重新回到文学的标准上 《南》：你把1949年作为一个界限，分别1949年前的文学和1949年后的文学。但1949年之后，不是也有很大差别么？1980年代前后，是不是也可以算作一个界限呢？ 顾：当然也是界限。1980年代好多作品也许过时了，但还可以谈一谈，而1990年代之后的作品都有很大的问题。 现在很多中国作家，内容关注爆炸性、刺激性，所以记者注意到他们。比方说，几年以前，中国—对夫妇写《中国农民调查》，他们拿了柏林一个非常高的奖金，但他们的语言和思想乱七八糟。中国当代文学的问题是，只要某一部作品被禁止或遭到政府的批评，那么就认为他们是好作家。他们根本不从文学本身来看作品，问题在这。作品可能与政治有一定关系，当然这不绝对。语言还是最重要的。 《南》：你觉得中国文学的水平不够，那在你看来，哪个国家的文学代表了较高的水平？ 顾：冰岛。50万人口，有一个人拿了诺贝尔文学奖。所以你可以说，我的标准是冰岛。 《南》：诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准，你基本上都是认可的？ 顾：不是，根本不是。我个人是这样认为的，基本上是政治。这是我个人的看法。 《南》：你对中国当代文学的了解有多深？像余华、李锐这些作家的作品你都看过么？ 顾：我都看过，很多作品看了第一次，就够了，不想再看第二次。有些作品写得很像电影剧本，很像给某个历史性阶段加上一幅插图。另外，我非常讨厌一个作家重复别人讲过的故事。 《南》：你觉得台湾的文学，在中国当代文学史上占什么地位？ 顾：我可以这么回答你的问题——我跟一个比较有名的台湾文学评论家谈过这个问题，他说，台湾文学就是给台湾人写的。如果这句话真的有代表性的话，那我不要研究台湾文学。给台湾人写的，不是给台湾以外的人写的，这个地方主义太可怕，所以他们现在完全处于边缘。而夏宇，他的诗歌是一流的。 《南》：陈映真你觉得怎么样？ 顾：现在我们回到内容的问题上来。他们提出一些有意思的问题，这个我承认，但是他们都是左派。我不反对左派，但是应该聪明一些。他们那个时候，我还是觉得是搞民族主义的，首先他是政治家，而不是文学家。当然这个问题比较复杂，因为一个作家应该有一个立场。但是这些人现在好像都不写了是不是？他们还在写么？ 《南》：可不可以这样理解，你希望中国当代作家能够尽快找到适合自己的坐标，看清世界最好的文学家，向他们学习？那么，这个坐标是谁？ 顾：你看北岛，他和1920、1930年代的西班牙朦胧诗派是分不开的。德国诗人策兰，王家新专门翻译了他的诗。我的意思是说，北岛、欧阳江河、王家新，他们不与中国文学（为伍），他们是世界文学。 《南》：中国当代文学家，是更应该向20世纪二三十年代的作家去学习语言，还是学习国外的著作？ 顾：都需要。如果一个中国学者没有学过好多好多外语的话，他根本不能了解1949年以前的文学。比方说戴望舒，他深受外国诗人的影响；胡适，好多作品是英文写的；钱钟书也是；等等。但是中国的当代学者，因为外语很差，根本不看中国作家过去用外文写的作品。 批评与反批评 《南》：你对中国当代文学的批评，引来很多反批评。你觉得今晚那些对你的批评都是没有道理的么？有没有部分修正你的观点？ 顾：对我来说，争论说明中国当代文学是很有问题的，应该多谈一谈。今晚的争论对我来说是好的。有些人发怒，我觉得不错，这说明他还是关心中国当代文学。 《南》：你还没有直接回答我的问题，你完全不认同批评你的观点么？比方说你对作家应是好的翻译家的过分强调。 顾：他们不对。 《南》：你强调作家懂外语的重要性，认为这样可以开阔自己的视野，但反对者认为写作是很个人化的事情，能不能看外文原著不重要。可不可以这样理解，在你看来，文学更多是技术活，需要不断地参考和学习，而批评你的人认为，文学很多时候是靠悟性，需要天赋。 顾：我觉得文学不是技术，而是艺术。同时，文学是刻苦的工作，和你们记者的工作一样。一个中国作家写小说，1个月到3个月之内，可以写完一部小说，德国作家一年最多写100页，说明他一天只能写一页中的一部分，中国作家不会这样做。诗人是另外一回事，中国一些诗人也许会一个星期写一首诗，但中国的散文、小说作家不会这样做，他们盲目自信。 《南》：你是说中国作家觉得自己有天赋，所以就可以不断去写？是这意思么？ 顾：中国有400万个作家，他们之中可能有一两个有天赋的，其他的肯定不是。 《南》：你还是觉得有的作家是有天赋的。 顾：每一个国家都会有，但这是意外。 《南》：在你看来，谁关于现代中国文学的研究是最好的。是夏志清么，他的《中国现代小说史》？ 顾：不。他的《中国现代小说史》很有问题，这个你应该知道。他完全否定鲁迅。抬高张爱玲是不错的，但是他基本上否定20世纪的中国（左翼）小说。 《南》：他这个和你否定1949年以后的中国文学是不是有点类似呢？左翼就是意识形态化，所以要否定他，就像你觉得1949年以后的中国作家外语不好，不会阅读外国的原著，视野很受局限。他有他的标准。 顾：他的标准是政治的标准，所以觉得鲁迅等都有问题。张爱玲和共产党没有什么关系，所以他觉得她是不错的。张爱玲是一个非常有意思的作家，文笔好，语言好，她的英语也非常好。 《南》：那你觉得关于中国现当代文学的研究著作，哪一本是比较好的？ 顾：你说中国么？这个应该由你们自己决定，因为你们有这么多书。国内有两个人，我用他们的资料用得比较多，一个是上海复旦大学的陈思和，他的中国当代文学史写得很好，一个是陈平原，我用他的现代文学史特别多，他也写得不错，基本上不错。如果没有他们两个人的文学史研究的话，我也可能没法写我的20世纪中国文学史，因为他们客观，有很多很多资料，等等。 《南》：但是陈平原就反对你的很多观点。 顾：无所谓。君子不怨。 （摘自《南风窗》2007年4月16日版） 来源:人民网—光明日报 附：Deutsche Welle德国之音对顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin）的采访。 Bonn University Professor of Chinese Studies Wolfgang Kubin is one of the most renowned Sinologists in Germany, especially on the presentation and study of contemporary Chinese literature. In this DW interview, he expressed his views on the Chinese Writers Association, the problems in contemporary Chinese literature, the problems of Chinese writers and how they can step onto the world stage, and also about certain specific writers and works. DW: In the recent Writers Association meeting in Beijing, Tie Ning【铁凝】 was elected chairperson. This is the third chairperson in the history of the Writers Association after Mao Dun【茅盾】 and Ba Jin【巴金】. I understand that you were in China at the time. What are your views? Kubin: I was in China at the time, but I don't know much about this event. In any case, it can be said that all of the Chinese writers that I know hold the Writers Association in contempt. For us Sinologists, it is a matter of indifference if there is a new chairperson for the Writers Association. DW: Can it be said that the new Writers Association president does not need to the most famous and respected person in the manner of Mao Dun and Ba Jin? Kubin: This Writers Association serves no purpose whatsoever. You can ask all the writers in mainland China and none of them will voluntarily talk about the Writers Association. Nobody. Not a single person. If one is a genuine Chinese writer, he will not join this Writers Association. If he became a great writer only after joining, then something is wrong with him. Generally speaking, good writers cannot possibly be associated with the Writers Association. DW: I understand you wrote a report recently about the problem of existence of Chinese literature in the 21st century. Can you summarize the contents of this report? That is to say, tell us about the problems that exist for Chinese literature over the past few years. Kubin: I can only mention certain existing problems that I feel exists in 20th century Chinese literature. If we divide Chinese writers into those before or after 1949, we will find out that writers before 1949 were pretty good with foreign languages -- Eileen Chang【张爱玲】, Lin Yu-tang【林语堂】, Hu Shi【胡适】, they can all write in foreign languages. Some of the authors (such as Lu Xun【鲁迅】) can handle two foreign languages without any problems. After 1949, you basically cannot find a Chinese writer who can speak a foreign language. Therefore, he cannot use another language system to examine his own work. Also, he cannot read the works written in foreign languages. He can only read foreign works translated into English. Therefore, Chinese writers have very poor understanding of foreign literature. Many of the pre-1949 writers believe that when they learn foreign languages, they will enrich their own writing. But if you ask a contemporary Chinese writer why he won't learn a foreign language, he will say that a foreign language can only ruin his mother tongue. I guess this is why there are no great writers after 1949 and why these writers do not compare to the pre-1949 writers. This is where the problem lies. This is a very important issue. DW: Do you think that this is the sole problem, or the main problem? Kubin. This is the biggest problem. When Chinese writers go overseas, they have to rely on the Sinologists because they can't even speak a word of foreign language. They rely on us completely. Their works need us to translate them from Chinese. DW: You must have some understanding about certain recent works from China in recent years, such as Kubin: DW: There are also the works of other authors such as the "pretty girl writers" like Mian Mian【棉棉】 and Wei Hui【卫慧】. Kubin: You must be joking. That is not literature. That is trash. DW: Do you think that there is any more decent Chinese literature in recent years? Kubin: There is some in Chinese poetry. There are some good, even excellent, writers of Chinese poetry, such as Ouyang Jianghe【欧阳江河】, Sichuan【西川】, Zhai Yongming【翟永明】 and others. There are many others. That is for sure. DW: China is talking about "Poetry is dead." Why do you think? Kubin: How can poetry be dead? Even if China is dead, then poetry will be dead in China but it will continue to "live on" in Germany. If a Chinese poet comes to Germany and we organize a reading, there will be at least 50 people, 100 people in attendance. We will certain publish their collected poems. Contemporary Chinese writers have published many poetry books in German. Chinese literature will not die in Germany. DW: How does contemporary Chinese poetry compare to the 1980's with people like Bei Dao【北岛】 and Yang Lian【杨炼】? Kubin: That is hard to compare. But I think that the poets from both the 1980's and 1990's are excellent. They have their own visions, they have their own language, etc. Personally, I obviously like Bei Dao【北岛】 and that group of people. But I am older and I should consider the younger readers. Those younger readers are likely to prefer the 1990's poets such as Wang Jiaxin【王家新】, Ouyang Jianghe【欧阳江河】, Zhai Yongming【翟永明】 and so on. DW: The Chinese Writers Association has a project now to select 100 Chinese works and translate them into foreign languages so that Chinese literature can go out into the world. What do you think about this plan? Is it meaningful? Kubin: This may mean something in the United States, but it is meaningless in Germany. Basically, we have already translated the Chinese literary works into German. All Chinese writers of any era already has German editions of their works. We do not need that help. But it is a problem in the United States where the need exists because they have done fewer translations. DW: China has been developing economically very rapidly. Some people say that China will surpass the United States economically in the next 30 or 40 years. The United States got prosperous in the last century. But we know that they prospered not only economically, but also in literature, cinema, popular music and so on. They had a tremendous impact on the world. Do you believe that China will also develop rapidly in literature to match its economic standing? Kubin: That depends on the Chinese people themselves. The people who despise Chinese culture and Chinese literature are not us foreigners, but the Chinese people themselves. The problem is with China itself. The Chinese people do not assign any important position to their own culture and literature. DW: How are we supposed to understand this? Why do you say that the Chinese people do not assign any importance to their literature? Kubin: Let me give you a very simple example. Last year, I published in Germany a history of 20th century Chinese literature. When the Chinese intellectuals who are all my friends (including the writers) heard that I was writing such a history, they said, "Don't write it. There is nothing good. It is all trash." DW: That is to say, they despise themselves. Or perhaps one should say that they despise each other. Kubin: Yes, you are very correct. They despise each other. DW: When Gao Xingjian【高行健】 won the Nobel Prize, the reaction from China was more negative than positive. Is that what happened? Do you feel that China will get another Nobel Prize in Literature? Kubin: The Nobel Prize in Literature is secondary. You have to write poorly in order to win. If you write well, you will never win it. Therefore the Nobel Prize in Literature is also trash.【关于顾彬对诺贝尔奖的观点与上文映照】 DW: If you have to say a few words to Chinese writers, what will you say? Kubin: They should learn to master their mother tongue well. Most Chinese writers have poor mastery of Chinese. Also, they should learn first on how to write. The problem there is tremendous for Chinese writers. But their basic problem is that their awareness is poor and their vistas are limited. It seems as if they live in a small room and they are afraid to open their eyes to look at the world. Therefore, China does not have its own voice, at least in terms of literature. There are writers everywhere in Germany, they represent Germany and they speak for the German people. Therefore we have a voice for Germany. But where is the voice for China? None. It does not exist. The Chinese writers are gutless. Basically, they have no guts. DW: That is to say, there is no such person like Lu Xun. Kubin: Yes, you are very correct. Lu Xun was representative. But can show me such a Chinese writer today? There isn't any. DW: Does this have anything to do with the environment inside China? That is to say, the ideological control. Kubin: Possibly. But you cannot keep saying that the conditions do not allow you. I feel that a Chinese writer should not keep saying that historical conditions do not allow him to do this or that. I consider that to be a joke. In order for a writer to become a genuine writer, he should not consider what difficulties he might encounter. He should speak out just like Lin Yu-tang and Lu Xun did back then. DW: From the 20th century to the 21st century, which Chinese writers would you consider to be great? Kubin: This is premature to say. You have to wait at least 50 years later and then you look back to see which (if any) are great. Lu Xun is definitely great. There are others before 1949. There are definitely none from 1949 to now. DW: Bei Dao and Gao Xingjian are not? Kubin: Gao Xingjian? Don't joke about this. Bei Dao could be considered great, because he is courageous. But you should not forget that he is only 50 years old. (责任编辑：admin) |